February 01, 2010

Gay Marriage, Straight Marriage, Let’s get Government out of Marriage.

Wedding Bears I probably will not win any fans from my more religiously conservative readers with this post, but if you will persevere and hear me out you may be able to formulate a new opinion on this issue.  The more I read, and study, and think about these issues the more Libertarian I become.

when-harry-met-sally

Let me start at the beginning.  When a couple gets married there are usually two  things that actually happen, but frequently we only recognize that one thing happened.   Harry meets Sally, Harry and Sally fall in love, Harry spends a ridiculous amount of money on Sally a ring, they set a date, find someone to officiate (usually some flavor of preacher), go to the courthouse and get a marriage license…wait, do you see what just happened?

Fancy Church When you get “Married” what most of us think about are white dresses and churches.  We are joining together in Holy Matrimony, professing our love in front of God and our families.   Why does the Government need involved in that? Because of the second thing that happens after the “I do’s”.  Marriage LicenseSomeone pulls out a marriage license and the happy couple and their witnesses and official sign it.  Now it is “legal”.  I even have a cute little funny picture somewhere of my (ex) wife holding the marriage license while we hug and she winks for the camera behind my back.  Sort of a , ‘I got him now’, picture.  (I didn't realize it was a catch and release program, but that is another topic)

two-babies-sleeping-54s Our government gives tax breaks and all sorts of goodies to people when they get married.  After thinking about it the reason is obvious: It is part of the social contract with the citizenry for procreating and contributing to the future of society.  We give you tax breaks, and ‘married-only’ deals on government loans and all kinds of things because you are assumed to be on the road to making babies.  So what happens if Harry and Sally decide never to have kids?  I think they should be in breach of contract.

Meanwhile, what does the Deity care if you have a legal document?  I believe Jesus  Render Unto Caesarsaid ‘render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's’.  I have not yet heard of anyone’s faith not recognizing the marriage vows based on whether it was duly recognized by the State.  What does God care?  God’s laws are not man’s laws.

buddha Buddha certainly doesn’t care, I asked him at the Chinese restaurant the other day, paid my check rubbed his little tummy and asked, and he said it was cool with him.  separationOfChurchAndState1

So two things happen… Church, and State.  Well I thought that the Liberals among  us were dead set against Church and State collaborating on anything…

Now really, and this is key, I am for Individual and States rights, and if I say that is what I am for I should be willing to put up or shut up.  If Tom and Jerry want to get married it does not hurt me in the least.  Really it doesn’t; I don’t have to like it, or agree, or anything, it simply doesn’t harm me at all.

 

ellen-and-portia  If Ellen and Portia want to tie the knot, how does that hurt me or my kids?  Remember I am for Individual and State’s rights, and so if I had my way, my kids would not be receiving a state education.

I am not currently married, and I am certainly not gay.  But what if I didn’t have any family, would I not want to be able to designate a caregiver, a beneficiary, an executor, etc as whoever I wanted it to be?  Isn’t it ridiculous to give tax breaks (even though I am against having an IRS anyway) to people just because they cohabitate no matter what their sexual practices?  If you have kids, you and whoever else is raising them should be able after proof of dependency to get whatever tax credit you are eligible for.  I half raise a kid that isn’t mine, I spend tons of cash on her full-house-cast-olsen-twinsand provide her a place to live at least 50% of the time, what makes me less of a parent than if I had married her Mother (yuck) or her (*gag*) Dad (gross double yuck) but I love the little stinker and her Dad needs help raising her so I do. Think Uncle Joey from Full House and you get the picture.

Over half of all marriages end in divorce anyway.  Look at all the step parents and single or unwed parents.  Think how much simpler it would be if it worked another way. Maybe this way:

separationOfChurchAndState1 You can marry whoever your preacher and congregation will allow, and let God be the judge if it works for Him or not. Neither forcing a congregation or preacher to marry any two people.  And really, who would want to force a preacher and congregation to marry them if they were not wanted in the church?  Church is not a place you can frequent very easily if you are completely at odds with everyone who attends.separationOfChurchAndState1

Then, you go to the courthouse and sign a declaration listing emergency contacts,  executors, transfer on deaths, caregivers, who gets all your stuff when the relationship splits,  whatever.  That takes care of all our emergency and end of life needs, no matter what your status with a Church is. 

Then if you end up raising kids: yours, theirs, or someone else’s, you get tax breaks and whatever else you have coming.  If no kids are involved, why have a special status? 

It really is, and should be, Separate.

One last item, no sane person on the “Gay Rights” side is going to argue with the definition of  as being between “two people of legal age”.  If they do then we just have to write them off as ridiculous.  That prevents Triads (which are already legal or ignored many places), bestiality (I think every sane person agrees this is gross), Underage Marriage (which happens already with guardian consent at ages I am not comfortable with), and all other ridiculous notions.  If this solution was offered and not acceptable, then that would tell me that the issue was not one of being treated equally, but one of trying to change someone’s religious views and force acceptance of the way you live your life on someone else, which is Statism at its’ absolute worst.

There simply is no other way to give both sides what they want, and what they deserve.  Unless we remove emotions and look  at things rationally, i.e. Civil Rights  vs. Religious Freedom, we will never solve this issue.  I am for both Civil Rights, and Religious Freedom.  We cannot take away one group’s (or everyone’s) gay%20marriage%20genericReligious Freedom, in order to guarantee some other group’s civil rights, and we do not have to.  The problem with Civil Unions as they have been discussed in the past is that they did not go far enough.  Remember there are two things that happen when you have a “wedding”. Let’s keep them separate and make it equal for everyone.

-KOOK

CMccainp.s. I cannot finish this post without stating that I am in no way agreeing that the Prop8 Protestors are correct.  A constitutionally mandated process was done as per the fervent wish of those seeking to redefine someone else’s religious beliefs, and they lost.  That is democracy, isn’t that what the left always wants?

 

 

-KOOK

Comments (7)

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Marriage is another big moneymaker for state and local governments. Not only do you have marriage licenses, but you have divorces and other legal matters that amount in simple paperwork with huge court costs.
1 reply · active 791 weeks ago
agreed. Our entire culture surrounding marriage disgusts me.
You touted the change from marriage as a religious, to a secular government concept. I was actually working on a story close to this myself regarding a certain court case in California. In cultures across the world, from Shintoism in Japan to the Meso-American cultures, to the ancient Celts in NW Europe and England, to the ancient Egyptians, Greeks and Romans, to more modern religions such as Muslims, Christians and Jews today, there was a concept of marriage. In those cultures, homosexuality was sometimes flaunted, sometimes frowned upon, there was a common thread that marriage was between a man and a woman. Marriage was, in all those cultures, a "religious" concept. Those in our culture who are pushing "gay" marriage have a much bigger picture in mind. Their goal is to first, go into churches and demand that they "marry" anything from a man to his chia pet, to 400 women at the same time from ages one to one hundred and anything in between. That is just a next step though. The ultimate goal, however, as stated in a California court case happening now, says that any legal argument in America must be secular in both nature and intent. This requres what amounts to mind reading on the part of the government to make sure that there is so religious intent when they vote, get married, or wipe their..get the picture? This would make any person of any religious faith besides atheist a legal slave and lesser citizen. It would also allow instant imminent domain rights to any property being openly used as a gathering place for a religious service.
As far as things like hospital visits and "discounts" go for married folks go, let's get government out altogether, and out of everything else as well. The healthcare plan passed by the h.o.r. actually charges double per person for married folks than single folks. So, we now have problems both ways. This probably sounds like I am making the argument that gay marriage should be strongly banned. I am not. I am saying let's get the freaking government out of our churches and out of our lives and if some moonbat church wants to allow gay marriage, that is bettween them and God.
conservative girl's avatar

conservative girl · 791 weeks ago

My objection to gay marriage is the fact that I believe that marriage is primarily a religous institution. It just so happens that the state chooses to recoginize it. I really don't like all the civil unions talk. It is the same thing just saying another name. The reality is there are ways for people who are not married to protect their legal rights. It is just a matter of paperwork.
I don't care what people do in their bedrooms as long as everyone is a consenting adult. I do, however, care if the government tries to interfere with my church. So, basically I guess I agree with what you are saying.
3 replies · active 791 weeks ago
Exactly. When government gets involved in marriage everyone loses. Marriage is a religious institution. Government entitlements and breaks are "civil rights". We need to reframe the argument to make people understand the separateness of the issue.
Civil unions and marriage are not the same thing. There are at least 50 rights in marriage that ae not in a civil unuion. Most stats say there are 1,100 fed/ state rights in marriage that are not in a civil union but I have read at least 50 on my own.

the LGBT community are second class citizens with marriage and civil unions as they are now. Why should we in the LGBT have to deal with all the paper work, lost time and legal fees that our straight counter parts do not have to deal with? That is not equality. It tells the Lgbt community that our relationships are not as important as our straight friends are. People may not think of it like that but that is how we feel. We feel disrespected. I do not feel disrespected by anyone on this blog( I just wanted you all to know that and I love that this is being discussed here like it is. )
kook is right, the marriage culture is all screwed up, it is whet is causing the problem. I (and I would venture to say most thinking and sane, normal gay Americans) do not want to change your ways, hearts and minds on the matter. If there is a church that would not let my partner and I marry and they are a 5o1(3)c. (I am sure I wrote that wrong but I think that is the tax code of a truly tax exempt org. They do not get any extra tax cuts from the big gov, therefore they can preach as they wish with rules on what they say politicaly) I am good at knowing where I am not wanted. There are other churches who would nothing more than to join two gay people in marriage. We should protect the rights of the church that does not want to marry gay people and those( who I would not call moonbat, but to each his/her own. ;) ) that want to let gays marry. I do not see this as a "this or that" there is a middle ground that would not take rights from either party.

I to want gov. To get out of marriage. I think the IRS is a total crock and the 1,100 state and federal rights should not be there for anyone. I too want the government out of my life and wallet.
If you take the stance that those rights in marriage are only there for having kids then they should be extended to every gay and lesbian family that has children. I (not yet having kids) would think those rights are to help the parents help thier children, to help care for those kids and enrich thier lives. Therefore, if we keep things like they are now we are keeping the kids of same sex parent homes from the same opertunies of the straight family kids.

Now,if I am ever lucky enough to have little ones I want to raise them with out the government involved. It is my convection that those governmental parts of marriage should be Desolved but things are not equal with marriage/ civil unions as they are now. It is not even seperate but equal. It is 1st and 2nd class citizens.
(I am sorry for any and all typos.I typed this on an iPod. I will try to fix all the typos later if I can)
First, I want to say that it's nice to hear opinions from all sides. We can't really debate without more perspectives involved. The whole point of granting Churches various tax exempt status was to prevent Churches from having political discussions. So, there can be no legal discussion within a Church, once a particular issue becomes politicized. If we get the government put of the churches, and undo the insane tax code regarding them, put marriage back into Churches, where it began, and get government out of it all together with it's various rights, etc, we can fix the whole problem. This is one perspective where, liberals, conservatives, and anything in between are coming to a "libertarian" stance. As far as the term "moonbat" goes, it's all a matter of perspective. I take a quite literal interpretation of biblical issues, so my view of moonbat is probably differently different that yours, but I am against making anyone "2nd class citizens" just as I am against making anyone a second class citizen, including myself as that court case in California would.

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