June 26, 2009

Really Good Debate...

While on Left Coast Rebel's blog yesterday, discussing Obamahealthcaredestruction, I commented about my refusal to use terms "socialism" or "progressive" as I feel our language has been neutered by the so-called academia and media to push the perceived "center" to the left and make such things sound like "society" and "progress"...so I was engaged into a very good debate with an opposing point by Nick. I reposted my "Neutering the Language post" (see Meanings of Words section) on Nicks blog to make my point as to why I do so. Here is Nick's point:

To Andrew:

I use the term 'socialism' (when I do) because it's the correct context for what I'm trying to say. The difference between socialism and communism is that communism is socialism, with the addition of a particular government and religeous structure. Socialism is only (generally speaking) the process/structure of the government running what could/should otherwise be private enterprises, interfering in private contracts, manipulating markets, and exerting control over private enterprise.

I agree that it's unfortunate that our uninformed youth confuse the two, and/or do not appeciate the malignancies of socialism simply based on the terminology. However, I'm not going to debase my logical analysis to try to appease people who are two dumb or ill-informed to reply with anything other than the semantic equivalent of "nuh-uh" anyway; personal choice.

I want to make clear that Nick and I are on the same side and this was a valid point and I understand his argument so there is nothing personal here. I see nothing wrong with his viewpoint, yet after reading Common Sense by Beck/Paine, I noticed that it was written in a way than anybody could understand it. Anyone with even basic reading skills could pick it up and understand every point made. I think that is important to do here. I want anyone who stumbles onto this blog to understand the points made here. Climate is a good example...I could lay out terms all day that would have most folks so confused their head would spin, but is that my goal? Was that Glen's goal in writing Common Sense? I think not. I want everybody to understand my points, whether new to politics, climate change or whatever the subject or not. Not all of us have been in this debate as long as others and I want everybody to understand my point. That's common sense.

Comments (15)

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Nick sees "communism" as "socialism" where I see it the other way. I see socialism as communizing half our society. If you have 2 glasses, one this poison, one with poison watered down which one should you drink? would you call the watered down poison- water or poison? I call both poison and drink neither one. That is my logic for "socialism" as I perceive it to be "communizing" half our society.
2 replies · active 822 weeks ago
Well you and I have had this conversation before. My thoughts are thus: there is no difference between communism, socialism,fascism, nazism, or the American version: Progressivism. They are all Statist control methods. They are all totalitarian systems that suppress liberty and individual freedom. All those systems subjugate people and elevate the political class. Communism just uses class to stir up folks in order to convince the populus to give up freedom. Likewise Socialsim uses hatred of the wealthy in order to "level" society. Fascism uses national pride to mobilize people; nazism is just fascism with extreme racism thrown in. Progressivism is smiley faced facism which uses wealth envy, fairness, and the "for the children" mantra to achieve its goals. They are all the same and they all came from socialist theory. They are all just different versions of the same Kool-Aid.
exactly...and most Americans associate communism as an "enemy" concept because of the "cold war" which is why I use the term for all of the above. That is why I use that term as you use "statism" which is actually a little more accurate but in my opinion has a little less impact. As I said before this was nothing personal and we are all on the same side no matter the term. I made my point as to why I use communism for all such things, Nick made his point why he does not. I appreciated his point.

*note: It is a personal belief of mine that it takes more "intelligence" to explain a complex concept in a way that everyone understands than it does to use terms that only those familiar to your argument understand. pResident Obama got himself elected by sounding "intellectual" yet not really saying a thing.
Good debate guys - could you visit and support Nick's blog too? He's a great thinker and debater - one of the best really. His blog is small-time and he loves a good debate. In some ways he's a better writer than me too! This post reminds me of some thoughts at my blog. Sometimes I think that a really good back and forth argument sounds better than the post that it flowed from........
4 replies · active 822 weeks ago
I did exactly that, from the beginning. I actually posted a first argument, then as I posted this here, posted it also on his blog along with a what was intended as a thank you note for his differing opinion. I believe that to do any less would be classless gossip and I will do such things. Nick made a good point, has what looks like a good blog and I want no animosity between us as we are fighting on the same side in the same war. We simply have differing ways of doing so. It was because I was impressed by his opinion that I thought it worthy of posting here for our readers that it is included in my post here. Unlike the other side who squashes debate, we encourage it. That is what separates us from them.
Well said my friend well said
Absolutely the talking with others is better than the venting and just posting...if no one replies you still feel alone.
Thats true, also when we chat on other blogs, other folks see us and check us out here. All our blogs have a different take but are on the same side, much like our respective favorite talk radio or T.V. hosts. I enjoy seeing the different perspectives on other blogs. They give me a better idea of where I am at in the big picture.
Guys - Man I have a headache today, I was rushed to write up another 'get on your rep' cap and trade post, my cold came back, I am pissed from the news......I feel like I need a break. Leave me some comments on my morning post to cheer me up.
LCR
1 reply · active 822 weeks ago
Don't feel bad, I am doing this, with a migraine, and watching what is predicted to be a tropical storm or hurricane for me (early next week) forming at the same time (YAHOO). That is why this is my only post/comments for today
Yeah; there are no hard feelings here, just good debate. I didn't mean to imply that you guys are the people responding with "nuh-uh"; rather I didn't want to use the term "communist" to invoke more denotative inferences in the minds of those people who are too dumb to understand what Obama and the other socialists are trying to accomplish behind all their flowery and deceptive rhetoric. I think we're definitely on the same side in the general argument sense; we just have different opinions on what scope of sociologically-destructive policies are attributable to each term.
2 replies · active 822 weeks ago
I could not agree more.
I'm very glad to see you here. I was not in the least offended by your comments, but impressed by them. We try our best to put good ideas out there for our readers to discuss and debate on and do not oppose a different viewpoint. I'm glad we are on good terms and meant no offense by any of my comments. I believe this policy has been good for us and for those who have joined us. Please feel free to express your ideas here anytime. KOOK and I use differing terms for the same things and understand each others viewpoints. We are all from differing parts of the country and use differing language also. As I said before, we are all fighting the same war, on the same side.
Andrew,

Check out my post on global warming. I'll add any comments you have.

Thanks!
1 reply · active 822 weeks ago
I cannot seem to find your blog. Weird, but could you post it here or give me your blog address. I have a very "bad news" climate post about to come up myself....

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